{Stus-List} Ice Box Drains...drain vs pump

Bill Bina billbina at sbcglobal.net
Tue Sep 20 09:34:07 EDT 2011

The question was not about sanitation, but of how to keep the ice frozen 
the longest. Read my examples again, and make sure you understand what 
they mean. Honestly answer the questions I raised.

What are reefer holding plates made of, and why? They are made of heavy 
steel because it has THERMAL MASS. So does water. Air has almost none. 
If air could keep things cold, they would make holding plates out of a 
thin walled container filled with air. Note that reusable "ice packs" 
are not filled with air, either. A thawing reusuable ice pack is still 
colder than ambient air until its contents are completely melted.

Why does a refrigerator use less power and hold temp during a power 
failure longer if it has a bunch of jugs of water kept in it? The less 
air space, the longer it stays cold and the more resistant it is to the 
effects of opening of the door.

Why would anyone think melt water was suddenly not as good as air for 
holding temperature because it is now 33 degrees instead of 32 degrees? 
It is still basically the same substance as the ice. Air is very 
different, and incapable of holding any temperature on it's own. Sorry, 
but this "debate" is not even close to being debatable unless we want to 
throw in the Easter Bunny/Flat Earth effect to make it an actual 
controversy. :-)

I don't have problems with the water "getting nasty" because I put food 
inside waterproof containers, or vacuum bags sized for one serving per 
bag. That said, draining your meltwater isn't going to leave you with a 
dry and sterile environment, anyway. Since there will be more air 
available and a blast of warmth hitting the damp contents every time you 
open the lid of your drained cooler, I would guess that draining 
encourages bacteria and mold growth more than having the cooler full of 
very cold water. Note that I am calling this a guess. I think it's a 
pretty good guess and based on reasons, which I included, but I'm not 
calling it a fact.

Bill Bina

On 9/20/2011 8:38 AM, dwight veinot wrote:
> Don't need much of an experiment to know that gravity exists but how 
> about a simple experiment to prove what causes gravity...
> That water in the icebox can get pretty dirty and become a breeding 
> ground for all sorts of nasty stuff... it may be healthier to keep the 
> inside dry at the expense of some loss of cooling due to draining the 
> water
> D. Veinot
> C&C 35 MKII, Alianna
> Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:*cnc-list-bounces at cnc-list.com 
> [mailto:cnc-list-bounces at cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Bill Bina
> *Sent:* September 20, 2011 9:11 AM
> *To:* cnc-list at cnc-list.com
> *Subject:* Re: {Stus-List} Ice Box Drains...drain vs pump
> Do you need to do an experiment to make sure that gravity exists?
> What do they make reefer holding plates out of? Heavy steel. Why don't 
> they make them out of air, or a thin metal case filled with air? 
> Because THERMAL MASS is what keeps things either hot or cold... not 
> air, which has very little ability to hold temperature, either hot or 
> cold without outside influence.
> What is a simple way to make your refrigerator on land use less 
> electricity and remain cold for longer in a power outage? Fill it with 
> jugs of water, and pack it so there is as little air space as 
> possible. Once refrigerated to the temp of the frige, they become a 
> thermal mass bank, which will stay cold and not go to room temp the 
> minute you open the fridge door. Filling the fridge with jugs of air 
> doesn't do much of anything in that application.
> When you are at the beach, why do you jump in the water? Because 
> unlike the air at the beach, it remains cool when the sun is up. The 
> air heats as soon as the sun hits it because it has almost no thermal 
> mass. If you apply a 1000 degree flame to two steel containers: One 
> containing a cubic foot of 35 degree water and one containing a cubic 
> foot of 35 degree air, which one will reach 100 degrees faster?
> The fact is, the difference between the temp holding ability of water 
> in an ice chest, and air is not even remotely close.  When I use the 
> word fact, I do not mean "opinion".  I mean fact, as in settled 
> science. Melt water makes the ice melt MUCH slower.  Melt water 
> remains pretty close to the temp of the ice it came from as long as 
> ice remains, and is very slow to warm even when the ice is gone.  It 
> will be always be closer to the temp of the ice than any air that you 
> have available. That melt water will never be as warm as the ambient 
> air as long as any ice remains, and for a while after all ice is gone. 
> The only place an insulator helps you is in the CONTAINER, to keep the 
> cold in and the hot air out. Any air inside the cooler is a detriment. 
> The best situation would be a cooler that is full to the top with all 
> spaces filled with melt water right up to the rim. That gives you the 
> most thermal mass, which is what retains the cool and the ice.
> This summer, I came home with ice remaining that started the trip with 
> me 10 days earlier. This was in 85-90 degree weather during the days 
> and 70's at night. Ten days. Actually the cooler was packed the night 
> before I left, and there was still ice and cold food in that cooler 
> the day after I returned home, so call it 12 days. I apparently 
> understand how this works! So do ALL cooler manufacturers, who 
> naturally want you to have the best possible results using their 
> products. Ask them if you are still not convinced. It doesn't matter 
> which one you ask.
> ps. Even though gravity is still a theory, I'm pretty sure it exists 
> and works as advertised.
> Bill Bina.
> On 9/20/2011 7:57 AM, Della Barba, Joe wrote:
> Sounds like we need a science experiment!
> */Joe Della Barba/*
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