Just one other thing for novice spinnaker handling, the philosophy of
gybing.

The chute does NOT come across the boat; the boat turns UNDER the chute.
Visualize the chute traveling pretty much straight down the course while
the boat turns port/starboard beneath it.  If your driver and crew develop
this way of spin sailing, your gybes will go well.

--
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

That is one bad-ass foreguy, Dennis.

From: Dennis C. via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2023 9:04 PM
To: Stus-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dennis C. captbuy@gmail.com
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

Comments embedded

On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 1:11 PM andrew--- via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:

Good day,

I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.

The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

1. Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind. I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible. Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?
2. Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe. End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged. Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?

We end for end on my 35.  But we don't have a baby stay.  If your baby stay became detachable, you could end for end.  In my area, end for end is prefered up to 35 feet.  We think it's faster.

1. Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate? Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul. Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.

Touche's pole downhaul attaches to the boat with spring hooks.  No deck penetrations except in the middle of the foredeck.  Attaches to the stanchion bases.  Can attach or remove in 5 minutes.  It's a double foreguy rig.  Trims from either side in the cockpit.  Open the link below and scroll down to the 4-5 pics labelled "foreguy x.jpg".

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_sb5TfIENvsNll4b3ZwM1B4a28?resourcekey=0-3peSuFJ-nDmRY4vWPFSoFA https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B_sb5TfIENvsNll4b3ZwM1B4a28?resourcekey=0-3peSuFJ-nDmRY4vWPFSoFA&usp=share_link &usp=share_link

2. Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast. I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave. I would think there would be but wanted to check.

About where Touche's topping lift is.  Mine does not have a sheave.  It's just a donut fitting.

1. Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).

Search eBay or salvage sites for a T-track.  Start with a pin stop car.  If you want to upgrade, get a ball bearing car.

Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker. We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done. Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.

Thanks!

Andy

Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

--

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA

Everyone - thanks very much for the very useful and informative responses - much appreciated!  The goal is to get setup as simply as possible.

I am tending for symmetrical setup for sure - just nice to be able to go close to DDW efficiently - for cruising and racing (no asymmetrical in our fleet).

So here’s where I’m at…

1. Baby stay - attach snap shackle at base with bungee to pull it to base of mast when disengaged.  Use block and tackle on baby stay for adjustments (maybe 4:1, not sure yet).

2. Topping lift - consensus is that there is a sheave in the slot 2/3 the way up the mast I will check that out for sure.  I will keep topping lift cleat on the mast - for end to end gybe’s it should require minimal adjustments.

3. Inboard end - I will attach a ring to the mast (head highish) and plan on gybing end to end.

4. Downhaul - I saw the pics thanks but did not see a picture of the deck fitting.  I’m pretty sure I could devise a system that connects to toe rail mid pole distance

Once again what a great response from this forum - thanks.  I will reply with an update hopefully sooner than later!

Andy (Tryfan)
C&C33-2 Comox, BC

Hi Bruno,

Good to hear from you thanks for the note and suggestions, much appreciated.

I just responded to the C&C list, with my plan.  Lots of good feedback and suggestions there what a great resource.

I remember you used to be setup with asymmetrical and saw the pictures. If you have pictures of your new setup that would be helpful for sure.

Thanks again!

Andy Walther

From: Bruno Lachance bruno_lachance@hotmail.com
Sent: January 16, 2023 3:43 PM
To: Stus-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Andrew Walther andrew@apwengineering.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

Hi Andrew,

I went the same route few years ago on my 1987 33-2 (Offshore spar mast on this vintage). First, you have a pole and a sym spin so you already have the « big $ items ». In my opinion you are on the good path.

When we bought our boat we had no free flying sails. A good friend had an asym on a furler and a Selden bow sprit. He loved it and convinced me to do the same and we did. I do like this setup, but you cannot go really deep downwind and It became frustrating for us especially in light air, cruising or racing.

One season I raced on a C&C 99 with a symmetrical spin setup, gained confidence and loved it. So I bought one and then also got a very expensive Forte carbon pole because it was impossible to find a used pole so I went a bit crazy. It is very light and easy to handle (the 99 had one so I knew it was vasy to end for end this size of kite/pole)

Our boat has a topping lift, a baby stay with a track on deck and a pin car on the mast. I modified the baby stay track to fit a downhaul, not the best angle but It works. We always gybe end for end, don’t use guys, only barber haulers on sheets and i release the baby stay but keep it attached when gibing. To do it I have to release the pole, move it in front of the baby stay and reattach, call made and we trim! The pole is behind the baby stay, no problem to bring the pole back, only risk is if not released and you bring the pole forward the stay might be in contact and damage will occur.

We use a sock and sail most of the time with only 2 onboard. I have one set of primaries, but often use the cabin top 18 Barient for spin sheets. I also use the primaries depending of situations. Yes I could use more winches, pad eyes, snatch blocks, guys, but we found a way to make it work and it does. The barber haulers are very useful to stabilize the sail when gybing and the carbon pole makes a big difference for the person doing foredeck.

I understand the other comments about the babystay, but if you take your time it can be done. It depends if you want to be as fast as possible racing or take a few more seconds to do it safely, do you want to use your spin in light wind only or keep it as long as you can when the wind go up? In what kind of sea state do you sail your boat, etc…

Next season I plan to try adding a bungee to bring the baby stay close to the mast base when release, but I fear it might be even more on the way. We will see.
Otherwise I often use the babystay in sync with the backstay to de power the main boat or to prevent pumping. It is necessarily in the conditions we sail here and I would not want to remove it.

I learned a lot since I got my symmetrical and I am sure you will love it. Definitely a must for club racing.

Let me know if you want pictures or talk about our setup.

Bruno Lachance

Le 16 janv. 2023 à 14:11, andrew--- via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> a écrit :


Good day,

I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.

The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

1. Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind. I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible. Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?
2. Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe. End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged. Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?
3. Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate? Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul. Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.
4. Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast. I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave. I would think there would be but wanted to check.
5. Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).

Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker. We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done. Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.

Thanks!

Andy

Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Andy, the last step is that you need to keep us posted on how you do once the racing begins!

Richard
1985 C&C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596

Richard N. Bush Law Offices2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite NineLouisville, Kentucky 40220(502) 584-7255

-----Original Message-----
From: andrew--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: andrew@apwengineering.com
Sent: Tue, Jan 17, 2023 1:52 pm
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

Everyone - thanks very much for the very useful and informative responses - much appreciated! The goal is to get setup as simply as possible.I am tending for symmetrical setup for sure - just nice to be able to go close to DDW efficiently - for cruising and racing (no asymmetrical in our fleet).So here’s where I’m at…

• Baby stay - attach snap shackle at base with bungee to pull it to base of mast when disengaged. Use block and tackle on baby stay for adjustments (maybe 4:1, not sure yet).
• Topping lift - consensus is that there is a sheave in the slot 2/3 the way up the mast I will check that out for sure. I will keep topping lift cleat on the mast - for end to end gybe’s it should require minimal adjustments.
• Inboard end - I will attach a ring to the mast (head highish) and plan on gybing end to end.
• Downhaul - I saw the pics thanks but did not see a picture of the deck fitting. I’m pretty sure I could devise a system that connects to toe rail mid pole distance
  Once again what a great response from this forum - thanks. I will reply with an update hopefully sooner than later!
  Andy (Tryfan)
  C&C33-2 Comox, BC

Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

HI Richard thanks for the note – for sure I will.  I’m quite impressed with how supportive this group has been!

Andy

From: Richard Bush bushmark4@aol.com
Sent: January 17, 2023 12:35 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Andrew Walther andrew@apwengineering.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Re: C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

Andy, the last step is that you need to keep us posted on how you do once the racing begins!

Richard
1985 C&C 37 CB: Ohio River, Mile 596

Richard N. Bush Law Offices
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine
Louisville, Kentucky 40220
(502) 584-7255

-----Original Message-----
From: andrew--- via CnC-List <cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: andrew@apwengineering.commailto:andrew@apwengineering.com
Sent: Tue, Jan 17, 2023 1:52 pm
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker
Everyone - thanks very much for the very useful and informative responses - much appreciated! The goal is to get setup as simply as possible.
I am tending for symmetrical setup for sure - just nice to be able to go close to DDW efficiently - for cruising and racing (no asymmetrical in our fleet).
So here’s where I’m at…

1. Baby stay - attach snap shackle at base with bungee to pull it to base of mast when disengaged. Use block and tackle on baby stay for adjustments (maybe 4:1, not sure yet).

2. Topping lift - consensus is that there is a sheave in the slot 2/3 the way up the mast I will check that out for sure. I will keep topping lift cleat on the mast - for end to end gybe’s it should require minimal adjustments.

3. Inboard end - I will attach a ring to the mast (head highish) and plan on gybing end to end.

4. Downhaul - I saw the pics thanks but did not see a picture of the deck fitting. I’m pretty sure I could devise a system that connects to toe rail mid pole distance
   Once again what a great response from this forum - thanks. I will reply with an update hopefully sooner than later!

Andy (Tryfan)
C&C33-2 Comox, BC

Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu