Good day,

I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.

The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

1. Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind.  I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible.  Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?

2. Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe.  End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged.  Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?

3. Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate?  Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul.  Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.

4. Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast.  I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave.  I would think there would be but wanted to check.

5. Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).

Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker.  We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done.  Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.

Thanks!

Andy

Comments below.

From: andrew--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2023 2:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: andrew@apwengineering.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

Good day,

I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.

The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

1. Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind. I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible. Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?

Yes, you will need to be able to disengage the baby stay.  I have no suggestions aside from a track.

2. Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe. End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged. Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?

A dip gybe is common for that size boat.  I can envision a real cluster-#@!& if you attempt end-to-end with a baby stay in the way.  Do you mean “a symmetrical” instead of “asymmetrical”?

3. Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate? Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul. Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.

On my 42 Custom, I have a track running down the middle of the foredeck (fore and aft).  I attach a block to the forward end of the track for the “foreguy” (aka downhaul).  You could also place a piece of hardware on the deck with a backing plate.  Leading the guy back to the cockpit without rubbing on something an issue to consider.

4. Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast. I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave. I would think there would be but wanted to check

The mast exit block for my topping lift, which can also be used for a staysail (not a tall boy), is also about 2/3 of the way up.  I suspect that’s what your exit block is.

5. Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).

I have seen single pole attachments for smaller boats, but this will make dipping the pole more difficult.  You need to raise the mast end to get clearance at the forestay.

Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker. We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done. Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.

Maybe consider an asym given all the hardware you need to purchase and install for a symmetrical.  Good luck!

Thanks!

Andy

My 34 came spinnaker equipped.

No matter what, the baby stay MUST be released and stowed back to the mast to allow for gybing and full aft pole trim.  If your baby stay is permanently attached to a pad eye, then you will need to change end fitting for a releasing type.  I have track with shackle so can adjust mast bend and allow for quick release or attachment.  I can gybe either dip pole or end to end.  I prefer end for end as is simpler.  Accordingly I rigged pole with bridles for both pole lift and downhaul.  Had to install block into deck with backing plate for down haul bridle

Downhaul must be separate line from the guy.  They serve different functions.  Ours goes through series of “eyes” on deck back to a jam cleat in cockpit next to winch for pole lift.  Main purposes of downhaul are to steady pole and prevent “skying” of spinnaker (very exciting btw).  This needs to be adjusted whenever any change in guy.

Pole lift enters mast through fitting in mast about 2/3 way up.  Is rounded exit with sheave.  Goes back to winch on cabin top

Will need winches – We have 2 secondary in cockpit Barient 22, 1 for pole lift on cabin top Barient 10 and one for halyard Barient 10

Will need track on mast, sliding fitting for track and fitting on pole end.  Have to be able to adjust pole height on mast for gybing and trim.

Best of luck

John Read

Legacy III

1982 C&C 34

Noank, CT

From: andrew--- via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2023 2:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: andrew@apwengineering.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

Good day,

I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.

The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

1. Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind. I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible. Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?
2. Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe. End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged. Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?
3. Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate? Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul. Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.
4. Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast. I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave. I would think there would be but wanted to check.
5. Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).

Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker. We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done. Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.

Thanks!

Andy

Additional comments below:

1. Depending on your mast 'stiffness' and how much you really can or do bend it, you may be able to permanently remove the baby stay--my 36 has a 'bendy' mast but the spreaders are 90 degrees to the boat centerline fore and aft. My sailmaker had a look and decided that given the conditions I sail in and the various PITAs that a baby stay presents, I could safely remove it, track and all, and just use my check stays to help steady the mast in choppy conditions. Much easier on headsails to tack upwind or deal with the kite downwind. (I would not take her offshore without either reinstalling the baby stay or otherwise stiffening the mast.)
2. Gybing a symmetrical with the baby stay in place is a recipe for disaster--from seriously injuring someone up to and including a gravity storm--mast coming down. I don't know about asymmetrical kite jibes with a baby stay in place. 
3. Doing dip-pole jibes with lazy sheets/guys would be a real challenge with only one set of winches. 
   Given where you are starting, I would seriously investigate an asymmetric kite. However, depending on your local PHRF rules, you may suffer a large rating hit with an asymmetrical kite. Before I would go that way, I would seriously investigate this possibility with your rating organization.
   FWIW
   Charlie Nelson1995 C&C 36 XL/kcbWater Phantom

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
To: 'Stus-List' cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: wolford@erie.net
Sent: Mon, Jan 16, 2023 2:28 pm
Subject: Stus-List Re: C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

#yiv2398790071 filtered {}#yiv2398790071 filtered {}#yiv2398790071 p.yiv2398790071MsoNormal, #yiv2398790071 li.yiv2398790071MsoNormal, #yiv2398790071 div.yiv2398790071MsoNormal {margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv2398790071 span.yiv2398790071EmailStyle19 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv2398790071 .yiv2398790071MsoChpDefault {font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv2398790071 filtered {}#yiv2398790071 div.yiv2398790071WordSection1 {}#yiv2398790071 filtered {}#yiv2398790071 ol {margin-bottom:0in;}#yiv2398790071 ul {margin-bottom:0in;}Comments below.  From: andrew--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2023 2:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: andrew@apwengineering.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker  Good day,I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

• Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind. I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible. Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?
  Yes, you will need to be able to disengage the baby stay.  I have no suggestions aside from a track.
• Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe. End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged. Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?
  A dip gybe is common for that size boat.  I can envision a real cluster-#@!& if you attempt end-to-end with a baby stay in the way.  Do you mean “a symmetrical” instead of “asymmetrical”?
• Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate? Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul. Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.
  On my 42 Custom, I have a track running down the middle of the foredeck (fore and aft).  I attach a block to the forward end of the track for the “foreguy” (aka downhaul).  You could also place a piece of hardware on the deck with a backing plate.  Leading the guy back to the cockpit without rubbing on something an issue to consider.
• Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast. I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave. I would think there would be but wanted to check
  The mast exit block for my topping lift, which can also be used for a staysail (not a tall boy), is also about 2/3 of the way up.  I suspect that’s what your exit block is.
• Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).
  I have seen single pole attachments for smaller boats, but this will make dipping the pole more difficult.  You need to raise the mast end to get clearance at the forestay.Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker. We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done. Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.Maybe consider an asym given all the hardware you need to purchase and install for a symmetrical.   Good luck!Thanks!Andy    Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks for your help.
  Stu

My 34 came spinnaker equipped.

No matter what, the baby stay MUST be released and stowed back to the mast to allow for gybing and full aft pole trim.  If your baby stay is permanently attached to a pad eye, then you will need to change end fitting for a releasing type.  I have track with shackle so can adjust mast bend and allow for quick release or attachment.  I can gybe either dip pole or end to end.  I prefer end for end as is simpler.  Accordingly I rigged pole with bridles for both pole lift and downhaul.  Had to install block into deck with backing plate for down haul bridle

Downhaul must be separate line from the guy.  They serve different functions.  Ours goes through series of “eyes” on deck back to a jam cleat in cockpit next to winch for pole lift.  Main purposes of downhaul are to steady pole and prevent “skying” of spinnaker (very exciting btw).  This needs to be adjusted whenever any change in guy.

Pole lift enters mast through fitting in mast about 2/3 way up.  Is rounded exit with sheave.  Goes back to winch on cabin top

Will need winches – We have 2 secondary in cockpit Barient 22, 1 for pole lift on cabin top Barient 10 and one for halyard Barient 10

Will need track on mast, sliding fitting for track and fitting on pole end.  Have to be able to adjust pole height on mast for gybing and trim.

Best of luck

John Read

Legacy III

1982 C&C 34

Noank, CT

From: andrew--- via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2023 2:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: andrew@apwengineering.com mailto:andrew@apwengineering.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

Good day,

I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.

The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

1. Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind. I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible. Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?
2. Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe. End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged. Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?
3. Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate? Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul. Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.
4. Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast. I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave. I would think there would be but wanted to check.
5. Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).

Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker. We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done. Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.

Thanks!

Andy

Hi Andrew,

I went the same route few years ago on my 1987 33-2 (Offshore spar mast on this vintage). First, you have a pole and a sym spin so you already have the « big $ items ». In my opinion you are on the good path.

When we bought our boat we had no free flying sails. A good friend had an asym on a furler and a Selden bow sprit. He loved it and convinced me to do the same and we did. I do like this setup, but you cannot go really deep downwind and It became frustrating for us especially in light air, cruising or racing.

One season I raced on a C&C 99 with a symmetrical spin setup, gained confidence and loved it. So I bought one and then also got a very expensive Forte carbon pole because it was impossible to find a used pole so I went a bit crazy. It is very light and easy to handle (the 99 had one so I knew it was vasy to end for end this size of kite/pole)

Our boat has a topping lift, a baby stay with a track on deck and a pin car on the mast. I modified the baby stay track to fit a downhaul, not the best angle but It works. We always gybe end for end, don’t use guys, only barber haulers on sheets and i release the baby stay but keep it attached when gibing. To do it I have to release the pole, move it in front of the baby stay and reattach, call made and we trim! The pole is behind the baby stay, no problem to bring the pole back, only risk is if not released and you bring the pole forward the stay might be in contact and damage will occur.

We use a sock and sail most of the time with only 2 onboard. I have one set of primaries, but often use the cabin top 18 Barient for spin sheets. I also use the primaries depending of situations. Yes I could use more winches, pad eyes, snatch blocks, guys, but we found a way to make it work and it does. The barber haulers are very useful to stabilize the sail when gybing and the carbon pole makes a big difference for the person doing foredeck.

I understand the other comments about the babystay, but if you take your time it can be done. It depends if you want to be as fast as possible racing or take a few more seconds to do it safely, do you want to use your spin in light wind only or keep it as long as you can when the wind go up? In what kind of sea state do you sail your boat, etc…

Next season I plan to try adding a bungee to bring the baby stay close to the mast base when release, but I fear it might be even more on the way. We will see.
Otherwise I often use the babystay in sync with the backstay to de power the main boat or to prevent pumping. It is necessarily in the conditions we sail here and I would not want to remove it.

I learned a lot since I got my symmetrical and I am sure you will love it. Definitely a must for club racing.

Let me know if you want pictures or talk about our setup.

Bruno Lachance

Le 16 janv. 2023 à 14:11, andrew--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com a écrit :



Good day,

I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.

The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

1. Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind. I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible. Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?

2. Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe. End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged. Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?

3. Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate? Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul. Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.

4. Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast. I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave. I would think there would be but wanted to check.

5. Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).

Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker. We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done. Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.

Thanks!

Andy

Please show your appreciation for this list and the Photo Album site and help me pay the associated bills.  Make a contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Stu

Hi Andrew

There is a 33-3 beside us at our marina.  Their baby stay is on a track and they always have the baby stay at the mast side of the track and loose so that it is not in the way for racing.  Their pole is set up with a  mast end and a clew end so they always do dip pole gybes although our 33 (different make) we do end for end without any difficulty.

Contact me directly and I can put you in touch with Scott who has the 33-2 that he races every week

Regards

Mike Hoyt
Persistence (in the shop for a paint job!)
Halifax, NS

From: andrew--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: January 16, 2023 3:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: andrew@apwengineering.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C33-2 Symmetrical Spinnaker

Good day,

I finally found a pole for my recently acquired symmetrical spinnakers, and time to get the boat setup for spinnaker, and was hoping for some input from the group.

The boat has never been setup for spinnaker.

1. Baby stay - it is currently fixed and not adjustable and I believe the purpose is to introduce a bit of mid mast bend to flatten the sail, and also to prevent excessive mast flex when pounding up wind. I would think that this needs to be disengaged to make gybing possible. Any suggestions other than mounting a track on the cabin top?
2. Gybing - if I could temporary disengage baby stay I could dip gybe. End to end gybing may be possible if baby stays engaged. Does anybody have any experience with gybing asymmetrical on 33-2?
3. Downhaul - I could mount hardware on deck for downhaul (I would assume deck would be strong enough with just a backing plate? Or another option would be to run sheet and guy, and use the guy, with a forward lead, as a downhaul. Not sure if the angle would be sufficient, probably OK though.
4. Topping lift - there is an entrance maybe 2/3 up the mast. I would assume this has a sheave (I will go up the mast within the month, but wondering if anybody knows if there would be a sheave. I would think there would be but wanted to check.
5. Mast track - seems like lot’s of work was just thinking of a single attachment point head high(ish).

Anyhow as you’ve gathered the boat was never setup for spinnaker. We will do some local club racing and also cruise, and looking for some input, or some good online resources to help me make the decisions on what needs to be done. Also we only have a pair of primaries and an addition pair is not in the short term plan.

Thanks!

Andy